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Offline Markus

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Entropy related stuff
« on: July 28, 2004, 06:32:42 AM »
Alles zu Entropy bitte hier posten / Post all stuff related to Entropy here


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Offline Markus

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Entropy´s future
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2004, 06:35:36 AM »
Quelle: http://f27.parsimony.net/forum66166/messages/6150.htm
[code:1]
Geschrieben von / Written by pullmoll am 09. Juli 2004 22:51:09:

 I decided that I'm not actually willing to continue to work on Entropy - for a simple yet important reason: I can't tell anyone anything definite about the security or insecurity of the algorithm(s) incorporated in Entropy. There's so much lies (and secrets), it might just as well be possible that the whole McEliece stuff is a zero-function.

 So, if anyone believes in the strength of RSA, he could try to replace the corresponding code in Entropy? I lost interest somehow and am sick of all the lying and cheating going on in this "business".

 I was recently attracted by emulation (of microprocessors) again and think that in this field I have more expertise than in anything crypto related. There are also many "real world" things to do for me, which I consider more important than playing around with cryptography. And I think I can do more for our democracy, for what's left of it, by actively contributing to social networks.

 I hope you understand my concerns.

 ciao pm
[/code:1]
Herzlichen Dank an Pulmoll für seine Arbeit an Entropy!
(Pullmoll war der Hauptentwickler und Projektleiter von Entropy)
Der Code ist unter der GPL freigegeben, falls sich interessierte C-Programmierer für seine Arbeit interessieren.

MfG,
Nemo.


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Markus

Offline Markus

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Entropy related stuff
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2004, 06:36:17 AM »
Ich finde es generell immer sehr schade, wenn solche Projekte eingestellt werden, aber andererseits muss man auch die Beweggründe des Entwicklers akzeptieren.


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Markus

Offline bitz

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Re: Entropy related stuff
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2005, 12:30:27 AM »
bump ;)

Due to a recent post on these forums (and on i2p) about entropy I've decided to take another look at it. Perhaps there is someone who knows further details about why it's development was discontinued.

For some reason legion seems all fired up over entropy... jrandom seems convinced it's a borked fork of freenet and is just junk.

Exactly what is the problem with entropy? Perhaps a actual entropy user could also review the latest version and sound off.

Legion seems convinced that the McEliece cryptosystem isn't known to be actually broken. Perhaps a cryptoanalyist can look over things further (uh perhaps one is around...).

So far there is just lot's of hot air and nothing solid about entropy.

I do notice that there are some things attractive about entropy, but there are just too many unknowns for me to currently use it. IMHO that a good overall review of it is needed and hopefully a expert cryptoanalysis can look through it and actually test the crypto for weaknesses?

Currently there are some problems - Is anyone even running it anymore? it isn't and wasn't ever well known and accessible or well packaged.

I can imagine that the publicity, packaging and accessibility problems can be resolved fairly easily and are not it's current biggest issue.
The biggest issue is it's unknowns, if those can be resolved then perhaps entropy can be revived and more importantly will be worth reviving.

Looking back through the irc logs legion did mention putting together a entropy distribution for windows and putting it up on legion's eepsite ...

Just guessing by the response legion got when inquiring about, I really don't expect to get any solid answers and entropy will just remain a fairly unknown freenet fork that just never made it. Heck I'll probably just be flamed for even posting this.


Offline Nemo

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Re: Entropy related stuff
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2005, 06:55:47 PM »
Perhaps there is someone who knows further details about why it's development was discontinued.
I don't know any details. The main (and only one) developer freezed the project. This is his last message about Entropy: http://f27.parsimony.net/forum66166/messages/6150.htm

Quote
jrandom seems convinced it's a borked fork of freenet and is just junk.
Some users said its faster than Freenet. IMO the reason: Entropy is/was so small, every node stored every content in Entropy...
I see three good points in Entropy:
+compiles to native code
+something like FEC is implemented, it's transparent for the user
+implements the Freenet Client Protocol, uses the same client programs

some negative points:
-use of "homemade" encryption, sounds like snake oil
-not really peer reviews while development (one-man-development-team)
-no bigger tests with network load and scalability, because the network was never bigger than 50 nodes; network abuse did never occour (Frost flooding/spamming, ...)
-no HTML-/JavaScript-Filter, malicous Entropy-sites could destroy the anonymity of the users

Quote
Perhaps a actual entropy user could also review the latest version and sound off.
This is another negative point: the latest version is veeery old...
I don't know how many Entropy users does exist today. Sometimes there's some activity on the Entropy Forum, there's an actual list of seednodes.
Quote
Legion seems convinced that the McEliece cryptosystem isn't known to be actually broken. Perhaps a cryptoanalyist can look over things further (uh perhaps one is around...).
AFAIK McEliece is just a crypto theory. It's very dangerous to use such technology. Using well known cryptosystems MAKES sense...

Quote
Currently there are some problems - Is anyone even running it anymore? it isn't and wasn't ever well known and accessible or well packaged.
I think it's not so bad packaged: http://entropy.stop1984.com/en/downloads.html
Compiling from source is simple as "tar -xzvf XXXX && cd XXX && make". Then some changes to the configfile and the seednode file and you're done with a native program.
(ok, distributing binaries as EXE, DEB and RPMs for different OS versions would be better. But I don't think it's worth to to this...)

Quote
... I really don't expect to get any solid answers and entropy will just remain a fairly unknown freenet fork that just never made it. Heck I'll probably just be flamed for even posting this.
There are still some Entropy freaks on the Entropy Forum. Perhaps you get better answers on this forum? (asking them why they still run nodes for a dead or inactive anonymous P2P network could raise some flames...  ;D)

Perhaps you see one of these pseudonyms on I2P or somewhere:
-vagabund (Freenet and Entropy user)
-ShadowSpawn (Freenet user and Entropy newbie)
-Toralf (Entropy Forum admin)

Here I found two developers which wrote they want to continue the Entropy project:
http://f27.parsimony.net/forum66166/messages/6153.htm
http://f27.parsimony.net/forum66166/messages/6399.htm

I was a Freenet user for a long time and I seldom started Entropy. But that's long time ago...

Greetings,
Nemo.

Offline bitz

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Re: Entropy related stuff
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2005, 11:37:12 PM »
After touching base with some actual entropy users, they seem to want better tools, such as fugid and more users to join the network. Several seemed to state that the entropy core is very stable and works great. One user even noted that on a windows based system entropy can run for at least 7 days without problems. So it's not really the core, that is holding entropy back at this point, more than likely it's the extra applications. Unfortunately such tools that exist for freenet currently are not compatible with entropy, due to the fcp version differences. Entropy has a older implementation than freenet and thus either it will need updating or the tools will need updating to support and detect both.

Perhaps some optimized builds that support mmx and other cpu based features could be produced (might lowever the cpu load even more).

Anyways IMHO that freenet should be abandoned, it's development halted and all current resources and development devoted to entropy instead. Certainly since a complete rewrite is planned for the next major release of freenet. Why waste such effort? It'd be better to just continue entropy's development. As to entropy's client and network being dead, bah I dunno who came up with that idea, but it's utter bunk. Only anti freenet/entropy people seem to think so. Several entropy users think that the current core is good enough and doesn't really need much futher development.

Basically what has happened concerning freenet/entropy development's status is really backwards, freenet doesn't deserve to have it's development continue, while entropy does. Yet it's freenet that continues to get developed, argh. It's a bloody shame.

Ah well both might become pointless soon, i2p development seems to be marching right along. It'll probably end up making both freenet and entropy seem amaturish.

I figure I'll get totally flamed for posting these comments, oh well.

Offline bitz

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Re: Entropy related stuff
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2005, 10:00:58 AM »
... As to entropy's client and network being dead, bah I dunno who came up with that idea, but it's utter bunk. ...

Basically what has happened concerning freenet/entropy development's status is really backwards, freenet doesn't deserve to have it's development continue, while entropy does. Yet it's freenet that continues to get developed, argh. It's a bloody shame. ...

Holy cow the project is still alive and being developed!

Presenting

Entropy 0.8.3-420
Release Date : 2005-06-17
[/i]
Quote from: main entropy website
Sourcecode version 0.8.3-420

    * entropy-0.8.3-420.tgz, 949.4K bytes, date 2005-06-17 23:37:37
      MD5: 1aa27af9c7c9ec07591eaa7044af1be4
      SHA1: 2bdf7ccb2a7d3753aba8cb7f2883020b8e990725

Heh I just noticed the new sourcecode release. Everyone that said "why bother with a dead project..." better be eating crow right now, ha. :P

Some thoughts...

The precompiled distributions might take awhile in coming, who really knows when the developer will get around to them. Compiling entropy on linux isn't a big deal. However windows and mac present a challenge. For mac osX it's not nearly as big of an challenge. Compiling on windows requires cygwin and many packages which may not be installed by default. Further details on compiling the source is posted on entropy's main website.

Not sure what changes and improvements have been made, I'd be happy with only a very little progress at least. ;) As I pointed out before the core itself doesn't really need much improving, if at all. :D Really how much better than freenet can entropy become than it already is. It's the client applications that need major improving and development.

Offline Nemo

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New Entropy build
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2005, 03:48:16 PM »
Holy cow the project is still alive and being developed!
It's nice to hear that Pullmoll (Entropy's one man developer) is still thinking about Entropy.  :)  He did some bugfixes as stated on the Entropy project website:
Quote from: Entropy Website
SUGGESTED UPDATE TO VERSION 0.8.3 BUILD 420 OR LATER
Useless zapping of incomplete keys is gone - this should save some traffic while retrying to get keys.
I assume there was a problem in the previous build with correct key exchanges.  ::)

BTW: I don't hate Entropy, I simply prefer Freenet over Entropy. I like both because both use similiar ways to get freedom of speech and both uses the Freenet Client Protocol for talking with client applications. It's possible to create multi-network client applications. This way Entropy would gain more users and the users can reach content of both networks.
(no more flame wars about Freenet/Entropy, just use your favourite network and this client.  ;D Who wants to start to code this thing?  ;))


About the new Entropy build:
There's a message on the Entropy forum, it seems that Pullmoll posted a message on the Entropy board (only accessible via Entropy gateway or Frost on Entropy; but it's not signed. I think it's not a fake.)
Quote
Pollmoll's statement
Geschrieben von / Written by tictock am 18. Juni 2005 12:33:00:
Rhis was from the Entropy board:

pullmoll wrote on 2005.06.18 - 07:26:29GMT:

Actually I'm not really going to work on Entropy. The changes are just minor fixes to keep it going.

Meanwhile I started to write an entirely new application, writing code and designing the network structure at the same time. The thing's name will probably be "PORT" which stands for "pullmoll's onion routing tool", and this implies the direction I want to go. I learned a lot from the errors I made during Entropy development, and I want to it a tad better this time.

The WIP code is in the CVS repository, module "port", including a "white paper", or my basic ideas lined up for those who don't read C.

ciao pm
That sounds for me like a Tor-clone....  ;D But there are other networks with Onion Routing too...


Quote from: bitz
Compiling on windows requires cygwin and many packages which may not be installed by default. Further details on compiling the source is posted on entropy's main website.
AFAIK using Entropy with Cygwin on Windows is still very ressource hungry. Some Unix-functions are just emulated on Windows, so it's a difference if it runs on Linux or Windows. AFAIK under Windows it uses more RAM and CPU.


I found a message on the Entropy forum about the compatibility between Entropy's and Freenet's implementation of FCP (FCP = Freenet Client Protocol):
Quote
The compatability of the two networks stops at the likenesses of key structure and FEC uploading, downloading. Entropy uses BCMA at end of site keys and freenet uses PaGM. I've seen PaGM keys on Entropy but that's not supposed to be. The two networks work independent from each other, that's the reason for the port difference, 8888[freenet] and 9999[entropy].

If someone would code a multi-network client:
-same content has different keys (not only the suffix PaGM/BCMA)
-inserting big files into Freenet is done with FEC (Forward Error Correction)
-Entropy supports something similiar like FEC, AFAIK client tools doesn't have to manage the checkblocks and such things

Greetings,
Nemo.

Offline Markus

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Re: Entropy related stuff
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2005, 06:43:07 PM »

Holy cow the project is still alive and being developed!

Presenting

Entropy 0.8.3-420
Release Date : 2005-06-17
[/i]
Quote from: main entropy website
Sourcecode version 0.8.3-420

    * entropy-0.8.3-420.tgz, 949.4K bytes, date 2005-06-17 23:37:37
      MD5: 1aa27af9c7c9ec07591eaa7044af1be4
      SHA1: 2bdf7ccb2a7d3753aba8cb7f2883020b8e990725

Wow, I am really surprised. I just thought that Entropy is dead but obviously pullmoll decided to keep the project still alive :)

BTW: If there is enough interest for Entropy I will revive the old Entropy forum on Planet Peer...

CU,
Markus



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Markus

Offline crypton

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Re: Entropy related stuff
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2005, 09:34:34 AM »
i'm interested with entropy! ;D


Offline crypton

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Re: Entropy related stuff
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2005, 09:39:30 AM »
Entropy 0.8.3-421 avaible! ;D

Quote
Sourcecode Version 0.8.3-421

    * entropy-0.8.3-421.tgz, 949.6K Bytes, Datum 2005-06-19 04:50:25
      MD5: 90cb2477411c0f4f9a37d73f1375de25
      SHA1: 5e10697db9113662fa0723d63fda51f773dee015

http://entropy.stop1984.com/de/downloads.html
http://entropy.stop1984.com/en/downloads.html

« Last Edit: June 19, 2005, 09:42:46 AM by defnax »

Offline bitz

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Re: Entropy related stuff
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2005, 04:32:17 PM »
Wow another source release so soon. :)

Maybe the developer's figured out we don't need another tor like network, really we have tor and i2p already. Hopefully he will keep developing entropy!  :D